Discussion:
Our questions expose us
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JTEM is Magic
2021-10-08 23:28:56 UTC
Permalink
So much of life isn't really about getting the right
answers, it's asking the right questions.

No. Not quite it.

So much of life is about perspective: "The glass is
half full or half empty."

I used to argue, in threads involving creationists or
trolls pretending to be creationists, that saying we
(humans) are chimps was rather pointless, as it was
simply a convention, not a "Fact." It's how we choose
to look at things. We might, for example, or I did argue,
begin in the present and work backwards. In other words,
instead of saying that we're apes because ancestors were
supposedly apes, we could accurately state that gorillas
and chimps are humans, as we are humans and we
descended from them...

Actually, don't honestly know about gorillas for sure but I
am pretty certain that chimps *Did* descend from us. So
in the "Humans are Apes" idiocy that would make us
people the apes and the Chimps humans, because they
would be related to us in the exact same way that we are
related to any supposed ape ancestor...

See that? What people cling to as real, what people dig their
nails into and insist is fact is really just a naming convention,
a convenience. And because people choose to look at things
that way this miss some very large and important facts.

Like how Chimps descend from US and not the other way
around.

...oldest Chimp fossil is less than a third the age of Homo
erectus, and upright walking is way older than any theoretical
split between humans & Chimps. So Chimps arose from an
upright walker who split from the human line a lot more recently
then is conventionally claimed.

All of this completely missed, outside of possibilities in the
linear, "Humans descended from Apes" naming convention.

Change your perspective and you change the world, reality
itself.

Your questions expose your perspective. They expose you.






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Mike
2021-10-09 00:45:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM is Magic
So much of life isn't really about getting the right
answers, it's asking the right questions.
No. Not quite it.
So much of life is about perspective: "The glass is
half full or half empty."
Not being accepted is not as bad as being rejected.
Isn't the contents of the glass of empirical importance
though?
Post by JTEM is Magic
I used to argue, in threads involving creationists or
trolls pretending to be creationists, that saying we
(humans) are chimps was rather pointless, as it was
simply a convention, not a "Fact." It's how we choose
to look at things. We might, for example, or I did argue,
begin in the present and work backwards. In other words,
instead of saying that we're apes because ancestors were
supposedly apes, we could accurately state that gorillas
and chimps are humans, as we are humans and we
descended from them...
Actually, don't honestly know about gorillas for sure but I
am pretty certain that chimps *Did* descend from us. So
in the "Humans are Apes" idiocy that would make us
people the apes and the Chimps humans, because they
would be related to us in the exact same way that we are
related to any supposed ape ancestor...
See that? What people cling to as real, what people dig their
nails into and insist is fact is really just a naming convention,
a convenience. And because people choose to look at things
that way this miss some very large and important facts.
Like how Chimps descend from US and not the other way
around.
...oldest Chimp fossil is less than a third the age of Homo
erectus, and upright walking is way older than any theoretical
split between humans & Chimps. So Chimps arose from an
upright walker who split from the human line a lot more recently
then is conventionally claimed.
All of this completely missed, outside of possibilities in the
linear, "Humans descended from Apes" naming convention.
Change your perspective and you change the world, reality
itself.
Your questions expose your perspective. They expose you.
Have you ever wondered how words can only describe
other words? Words have no substance onto themselves
yet they are so powerful. Where does the meaning come
from, and how does does 'meaning' create our reality?
I've always been intrigued by the word 'meaning'.
Post by JTEM is Magic
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JTEM is Magic
2021-10-09 03:30:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
Have you ever wondered how words can only describe
other words? Words have no substance onto themselves
yet they are so powerful. Where does the meaning come
from, and how does does 'meaning' create our reality?
I've always been intrigued by the word 'meaning'.
They're symbolic. Words stand for things. I have always argued
that speech wasn't even possible until cognitive abilities reached
the point of "Symbolic Thought."

The say small children, perhaps even chimps, can't grasp that,
say, markings on a map stand for things in real life. So until
the brain was highly enough evolved "Think" symbolically we
couldn't really speak.





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Mike
2021-10-09 04:14:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM is Magic
Post by Mike
Have you ever wondered how words can only describe
other words? Words have no substance onto themselves
yet they are so powerful. Where does the meaning come
from, and how does does 'meaning' create our reality?
I've always been intrigued by the word 'meaning'.
They're symbolic. Words stand for things.
Well, words as letters usually stand for verbal utterances.
The letters are not the word, but the utterance is. To me
there is a distinct difference between the written word and
verbal speech.

They can also stand for concepts or ideas which makes
it tricky. The word you utter is probably only an approximation
to the one I receive. What are ideas anyhow? Do they have any
substance? How can a set of symbols stand for something
invisible? What is the invisible thing called 'meaning' that they
stand for? How can something invisible have any substance?
When I think of it deeply it all seems very strange, sort of like
quantum mechanics, confusing below the surface.
Post by JTEM is Magic
I have always argued
that speech wasn't even possible until cognitive abilities reached
the point of "Symbolic Thought."
I think I might have told you before, I think one of speech's primary
reason for existence is you can organize your own thoughts. Talking
to others is it's secondary purpose. Most people probably spend more
time talking to themselves than they do to each other. At least I do.

It's strange to consider how silently mumbling to yourself thoughts
that represent verbal utterances can make one have a more meaningful
experience. It's really quite strange when you think about it. Most of our
experience comes from juggling thought that represent physical utterances.
How a though collapses into a word is a point of great intriguer to me. I
think it might be a quantum mechanics principle. Have you ever had
thoughts that couldn't be expressed in words? What happens when
your mind converts a thought into a sentence. It's not at all even clear
to me how thoughts manifest and is converted to communication. For
any communication to occur the transmitter and receiver must have
something in common. A symbol by itself has no meaning unless
the receiver already knows what it is. If you don't speak the language
it will not make any sense.
Post by JTEM is Magic
The say small children, perhaps even chimps, can't grasp that,
say, markings on a map stand for things in real life. So until
the brain was highly enough evolved "Think" symbolically we
couldn't really speak.
Speech is not the only significant intellectual capacity. Some
capacities don't necessarily involve thinking. For instance
a crow can distinguish between humans, but humans can't
differentiate between crows. That is a perceptual advantage
for the crows wouldn't you say? They can see us as individuals
but we generally can only recognize them as a group, or a
species. They can communicate with us, but we have more
difficulty to communicate with them.
Post by JTEM is Magic
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JTEM is Magic
2021-10-09 04:50:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
Well, words as letters usually stand for verbal utterances.
The letters are not the word, but the utterance is. To me
there is a distinct difference between the written word and
verbal speech.
Illiteracy was the norm for most of human history, but people could
still speak. They say even in Roman times learning was mostly
verbal. This was still the case in colonial times, where any skilled
craftsman or even doctors learned from apprenticeship, not
classrooms and certainly not books. If anything, tradesmen were
dead set against writing things down -- giving away the secrets.

"The more wisdom you spread, the less you have."
Post by Mike
Speech is not the only significant intellectual capacity. Some
capacities don't necessarily involve thinking. For instance
a crow can distinguish between humans, but humans can't
differentiate between crows. That is a perceptual advantage
for the crows wouldn't you say? They can see us as individuals
but we generally can only recognize them as a group, or a
species. They can communicate with us, but we have more
difficulty to communicate with them.
Birds are exceptionally good with patterns.

Not sure how keen their recognition skills are. Doing the exhaustive
30 second Google search I saw something about reacting to a man
wearing a mask. They didn't recognize the man at all, they were fooled
without that particular mask.





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Mike
2021-10-09 05:15:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM is Magic
Post by Mike
Well, words as letters usually stand for verbal utterances.
The letters are not the word, but the utterance is. To me
there is a distinct difference between the written word and
verbal speech.
Illiteracy was the norm for most of human history, but people could
still speak. They say even in Roman times learning was mostly
verbal. This was still the case in colonial times, where any skilled
craftsman or even doctors learned from apprenticeship, not
classrooms and certainly not books. If anything, tradesmen were
dead set against writing things down -- giving away the secrets.
"The more wisdom you spread, the less you have."
Post by Mike
Speech is not the only significant intellectual capacity. Some
capacities don't necessarily involve thinking. For instance
a crow can distinguish between humans, but humans can't
differentiate between crows. That is a perceptual advantage
for the crows wouldn't you say? They can see us as individuals
but we generally can only recognize them as a group, or a
species. They can communicate with us, but we have more
difficulty to communicate with them.
Birds are exceptionally good with patterns.
Not sure how keen their recognition skills are. Doing the exhaustive
30 second Google search I saw something about reacting to a man
wearing a mask. They didn't recognize the man at all, they were fooled
without that particular mask.
I love crows I used to feed them all the time. I cut out feeding them
because they were getting too annoying, and they will recognize you
for years. It's been about five years since I stopped feeding them and
occasionally an old friend still comes up to me. I know quite
a lot about their behavior from direct experience of feeding them.
It could be that they just don't like the mask. My feelings about them
are that if you are nice to them they will be nice to you. Probably if
I tried doing that, it might make them angry.

I change my clothes, cover my head, anything to hide from them.
They can tell by your clothes, size, gate, body language. I think they
can pretty much do what a human could do when we recognize each
other. If you know who I am and I wear a mask, I might still make you
afraid, because that is unusual. There are a lot of things that could be
happening.

I don't know the story about the masks, but I do my own experiments.
There are tons of crows where I live and I really love them. They are a lot
smarter than we think, but then again I think the same as cockroaches.
I think they are incredible, remarkable creatures.

I've even had a fly go throw a tiny hole to get away from me trying to
kill it. That happened twice. It's a bit beyond the maneuvers of what
I previously believed a fly could do. There is far more intelligence to
life if we could open our eyes to see it.
Post by JTEM is Magic
https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/664536960182960128
JTEM is Magic
2021-10-09 05:35:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
I don't know the story about the masks, but I do my own experiments.
There are tons of crows where I live and I really love them. They are a lot
smarter than we think, but then again I think the same as cockroaches.
I think they are incredible, remarkable creatures.
I've even had a fly go throw a tiny hole to get away from me trying to
kill it. That happened twice. It's a bit beyond the maneuvers of what
I previously believed a fly could do. There is far more intelligence to
life if we could open our eyes to see it.
I've often felt that exobiologists should be studying the intelligence of
invertebrates, amongst other animals.

Fish, maybe?

It seems that most studies are focused on how other species are
similar to us -- measuring them in comparison to us -- when what we
should be doing is focusing on how they differ, how those differences
might manifest themselves extrapolated into a technological species.

Undoubtedly some similarities would have to exist but, expectations,
the human bias is far too powerful to trust. If we see similarities
between earth species, and we're assuming some similarities must be
universal, we'll see the results of our shared earthly origins as somehow
being universally necessary.

Eeek.




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Mike
2021-10-09 06:22:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM is Magic
Post by Mike
I don't know the story about the masks, but I do my own experiments.
There are tons of crows where I live and I really love them. They are a lot
smarter than we think, but then again I think the same as cockroaches.
I think they are incredible, remarkable creatures.
I've even had a fly go throw a tiny hole to get away from me trying to
kill it. That happened twice. It's a bit beyond the maneuvers of what
I previously believed a fly could do. There is far more intelligence to
life if we could open our eyes to see it.
I've often felt that exobiologists should be studying the intelligence of
invertebrates, amongst other animals.
Fish, maybe?
It is said that Bioluminescence is the most preferment
form of communication on Earth. There's not telling
what these 'fishes' could be communicating.

Exploring Bioluminescent Life in the Midnight Zone

Post by JTEM is Magic
It seems that most studies are focused on how other species are
similar to us -- measuring them in comparison to us -- when what we
should be doing is focusing on how they differ, how those differences
might manifest themselves extrapolated into a technological species.
Undoubtedly some similarities would have to exist but, expectations,
the human bias is far too powerful to trust. If we see similarities
between earth species, and we're assuming some similarities must be
universal, we'll see the results of our shared earthly origins as somehow
being universally necessary.
Eeek.
-- --
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JTEM is Magic
2021-10-09 06:35:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
It is said that Bioluminescence is the most preferment
form of communication on Earth. There's not telling
what these 'fishes' could be communicating.
Why not odors? Pheromones are a major thing. They mostly
trigger instincts, it seems, but what's to stop them from
evolving into a means of communication?

The only real drawback would be keeping secrets!




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Mike
2021-10-09 07:01:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM is Magic
Post by Mike
It is said that Bioluminescence is the most preferment
form of communication on Earth. There's not telling
what these 'fishes' could be communicating.
Why not odors? Pheromones are a major thing. They mostly
trigger instincts, it seems, but what's to stop them from
evolving into a means of communication?
The only real drawback would be keeping secrets!
External 'symbols' of any kind may not even be needed
for communication. Dreams, imagination, hallucinations,
the emotions and other things generated internally could
actually be 'communication'. There is no way to be sure
where these 'signals' are coming from. It seems to me that
just as snowflakes can exist anywhere in the universe where
the conditions are right, so can humans and even thoughts.
It is not far fetched to think two widely separated species
of similar types might have the same thought without the
need for any kind of transmission. Does the transmission
of information need to involve any kind of physical
apparatus or symbology. It still could be the case
that it doesn't.
Post by JTEM is Magic
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JTEM is Magic
2021-10-09 17:42:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
External 'symbols' of any kind may not even be needed
for communication. Dreams, imagination, hallucinations,
the emotions and other things generated internally could
actually be 'communication'. There is no way to be sure
where these 'signals' are coming from. It seems to me that
just as snowflakes can exist anywhere in the universe where
the conditions are right, so can humans and even thoughts.
It is not far fetched to think two widely separated species
of similar types might have the same thought without the
need for any kind of transmission. Does the transmission
of information need to involve any kind of physical
apparatus or symbology. It still could be the case
that it doesn't.
But now you're getting into what we don't know, what we
can't see, what we can't measure or test.














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Mike
2021-10-09 19:40:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM is Magic
Post by Mike
External 'symbols' of any kind may not even be needed
for communication. Dreams, imagination, hallucinations,
the emotions and other things generated internally could
actually be 'communication'. There is no way to be sure
where these 'signals' are coming from. It seems to me that
just as snowflakes can exist anywhere in the universe where
the conditions are right, so can humans and even thoughts.
It is not far fetched to think two widely separated species
of similar types might have the same thought without the
need for any kind of transmission. Does the transmission
of information need to involve any kind of physical
apparatus or symbology. It still could be the case
that it doesn't.
But now you're getting into what we don't know, what we
can't see, what we can't measure or test.
Schizophrenia need not be measured by a test
but determined by experience.
Post by JTEM is Magic
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JTEM is Magic
2021-10-09 19:50:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
Schizophrenia need not be measured by a test
but determined by experience.
The funny thing there is that the only person I know for a fact was treated
for schizophrenia habitually attributes it to others. He even appears to
"Forget" that he was hospitalized for it.

Based on nothing more than a documentary I saw at that other festival, I'm
guessing that it was at one time hugely stigmatized, even more so than
today. But from what I can tell that almost makes sense as there was no
real treatments for it. The best the could do was dope them up so they
wouldn't be too much of a bother to others.





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Mike
2021-10-09 20:29:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM is Magic
Post by Mike
Schizophrenia need not be measured by a test
but determined by experience.
The funny thing there is that the only person I know for a fact was treated
for schizophrenia habitually attributes it to others. He even appears to
"Forget" that he was hospitalized for it.
One of my best friends was schizophrenic. He did LSD regular which
I think was unwise. The first and only time I ever tried LSD with him
he friend jumping out the window of the 9th floor into the pool that
had no water and he splattered and died. He had ongoing issues with
medications and he lost his stable job so I think he just flew over the
edge. Personally I don't believe it was the LSD that did it. I wasn't
there to witness the event but I heard about it the morning after. He had believed
direct experience with UFO, and was so convincing he had me believe
believe him too. He was a strange guy because he was so monotonous
and inexpressive, but he had so many skills an talents. He was
someone you could trust, and count on if you needed him. I've never had
a more reliable friend. I still miss him. Plus he introduced me to so many
people. Most of my friends came from him.
Post by JTEM is Magic
Based on nothing more than a documentary I saw at that other festival, I'm
guessing that it was at one time hugely stigmatized, even more so than
today. But from what I can tell that almost makes sense as there was no
real treatments for it. The best the could do was dope them up so they
wouldn't be too much of a bother to others.
There must be different degrees of it, because my friend (Aaron) was
never a problem. Other than the suicide episode he didn't say much
about what was happening inside. When he jumped out the window
I think it was because he stopped taking his meds. He tried jumping
once before but another friend stopped him.
Post by JTEM is Magic
https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/664590992284008449
JTEM is Magic
2021-10-10 01:59:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
One of my best friends was schizophrenic. He did LSD regular which
I think was unwise. The first and only time I ever tried LSD with him
he friend jumping out the window of the 9th floor into the pool that
had no water and he splattered and died. He had ongoing issues with
medications and he lost his stable job so I think he just flew over the
edge. Personally I don't believe it was the LSD that did it. I wasn't
there to witness the event but I heard about it the morning after. He had believed
direct experience with UFO, and was so convincing he had me believe
believe him too. He was a strange guy because he was so monotonous
and inexpressive, but he had so many skills an talents. He was
someone you could trust, and count on if you needed him. I've never had
a more reliable friend. I still miss him. Plus he introduced me to so many
people. Most of my friends came from him.
Gawaine was always talking about LSD. Dan the Bagel Man is constantly
talking about people around him who are bipolar or something & chug
down drugs like they were candy.

It seems like there's a connection, like one attracts the other.
Post by Mike
Post by JTEM is Magic
Based on nothing more than a documentary I saw at that other festival, I'm
guessing that it was at one time hugely stigmatized, even more so than
today. But from what I can tell that almost makes sense as there was no
real treatments for it. The best the could do was dope them up so they
wouldn't be too much of a bother to others.
There must be different degrees of it, because my friend (Aaron) was
never a problem. Other than the suicide episode he didn't say much
about what was happening inside. When he jumped out the window
I think it was because he stopped taking his meds. He tried jumping
once before but another friend stopped him.
Doing the Google, I don't see any real elevation in suicides with schizophrenics.
But maybe my customary 30-second search was not quite exhaustive enough.

...but, helping Wendy at the Chinese restaurant, I made deliveries to the
bipolar/schizophrenia ward at a local hospital a number of times. I assumed
that meant the two disorders are related.

Weird thing: They weren't allowed to have plastic bags. Which was a bummer
because Wendy put things in plastic bags! So what the staff did after I dropped
it off I couldn't tell you...





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