Discussion:
Interesting Disease Theory
(too old to reply)
Jane
2004-09-27 04:24:35 UTC
Permalink
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a grain of
salt! Interesting article from today's Toronto Star:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840

"The retreat of glaciers around the world is the most visible - and
depressing - sign of global warming.

If that retreat continues at its present rate, it won't be long before the
glaciers will be gone, and the world of biology in the Arctic and high
altitudes changed dramatically.

So far, our attention has been focused on the extinction (or arrival) of
plants and animals, but are we in danger ourselves?

A team of scientists writing in the journal Medical Hypotheses claims that
the world's glaciers and ice caps are loaded with infectious agents,
especially viruses, and that their release by melting poses a new medical
threat.

Could they be right?

Here is what they say: Viruses of many kinds - including influenza - can be
frozen solid and still be infectious when they're thawed, so storage in ice
is not necessarily destructive.

A second point is that there's no reason to think that being frozen for
50,000 years is any worse than being frozen for five.

Of course, you have to get the viruses into the ice in the first place - and
then get them out, fully infective - if they're going to be a threat.

How would that happen? The authors point out that the life cycles of certain
viruses suit them to this kind of scenario.

One is polio. The feces of infected people are full of polio viruses, and
these often find their way into local rivers or streams, eventually reaching
the ocean.

The virus also freezes well.

No one has a clue whether or not it's found in ice, but the authors
nonetheless contend that "ice has a high potential for being a reservoir for
this virus."

The same is said for influenza.

In this case, the virus moves long distances, usually in the guts of
migrating wild ducks.

That implies that Arctic ponds and streams might be loaded with live
influenza viruses every summer. They could survive for days in water, and
for who knows how long in ice.

Direct evidence for polio or influenza viruses actually being locked in the
ice, ready to be unleashed by melting, is pretty scant. It amounts to
educated guessing. There is a better case for a less-well-known group called
the Caliciviruses.

They are odd: For one thing they prefer ocean fish (that's actually their
so-called reservoir), but will happily infect mammals, including us.

They are responsible for causing disease in an incredible variety of organs
(everything from the liver to the brain) in an equally diverse group of
mammals, from rabbits to grey whales.

The whale is an intriguing example.

Grey whales, which are full of Caliciviruses, take part in a famous annual
migration along the California coast and they encounter sea lions and fur
seals along the way, both of which are Calicivirus carriers themselves.

There's lots of opportunity for loose viruses to find their way into Arctic
waters, in which they survive very well.

And they might, just might, get splashed onto a glacier and locked into the
ice.

This theory argues that some viruses might emerge from the ice only after a
very long time.

In 2002, a Calicivirus isolated from an Alaskan Steller sea lion was found
to be genetically identical to a virus discovered more than 50 years ago.

That virus has a weird history: It was first identified in 1948, then
vanished, was rediscovered in 1968, then vanished again, only to reappear in
2002.

There appears to be neither rhyme nor reason to that cycle, but you could
speculate (as the authors do) that each appearance points to a single huge
release of viruses from the ice.

We know polio and influenza are very dangerous for us. It's not so crystal
clear with Caliciviruses. Animal biologists who have had contact with
infected sea lions and fur seals have become ill, though not seriously.

There's also suggestive evidence of slightly higher rates of Calicivirus
infection in some people with hepatitis and higher rates of abortion in
infected women.

But the medical picture certainly isn't stark as it is with those other
viruses.

So, should we be worried? At the moment it is far from being an airtight
argument.

Medical Hypotheses, which published the report, floats many, many ideas that
never again see the light of day.

But this one has, if not the ring of truth, at least a hint of it"
Barbarossa
2004-09-28 09:11:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a grain of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>

Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of Washington.
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is very bad
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we want to
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the Republicans
are not running America.

Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Jane
2004-09-28 17:01:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a grain of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of Washington.
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is very bad
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we want to
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the Republicans
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if it were
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not just
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters in the
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a natural
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all, earth's
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.

Jane
Marvin The Paranoid Android
2004-09-28 17:07:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a grain of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of Washington.
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is very bad
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we want to
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the Republicans
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if it were
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not just
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters in the
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a natural
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all, earth's
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Jane
Since the rate of consumption is constantly increasing, we're going to run
out of shit to burn soon enough.

The sun's a great source of energy, just no one's really spent the time or
money to harness and store it more effectively.



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.767 / Virus Database: 514 - Release Date: 9/21/04
Barbarossa
2004-09-28 22:58:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a grain
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is very
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we want
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if it
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not just
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters in the
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Jane
Since the rate of consumption is constantly increasing, we're going to run
out of shit to burn soon enough.
The sun's a great source of energy, just no one's really spent the time or
money to harness and store it more effectively.
So is windenergy and waterenergy. Many countries if they wanted could
live for free for a great deal. Add the H2 engine which only produces water
as "pollution" there could be a bright future ahead of us. But as long we
stay addicted to oil and coles we are heading straight towards oblivion.
If I think a little sinister it would not bother me. It would be great to
see
the efforts of the satanic NWO in conquering the world totally fail.

Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
tw
2004-09-29 10:12:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a grain
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is very
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we want
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if it
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not just
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters in
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Jane
Since the rate of consumption is constantly increasing, we're going to run
out of shit to burn soon enough.
The sun's a great source of energy, just no one's really spent the time or
money to harness and store it more effectively.
So is windenergy and waterenergy.
Not really - wind energy isn't terribly efficient, and I'd hate to see vast
areas of countryside covered with those fuckers. Also, any storage mechanism
(i.e. battery) is going to cause a hell of al ot of pollution in its
manufacture and disposal.

IMO, nuclear power is the way to go, it's just not "trendy" to say it.
Jane
2004-09-29 12:39:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a
grain
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is
very
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we
want
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if
it
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not just
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters in
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Jane
Since the rate of consumption is constantly increasing, we're going to
run
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
out of shit to burn soon enough.
The sun's a great source of energy, just no one's really spent the
time
Post by tw
or
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
money to harness and store it more effectively.
So is windenergy and waterenergy.
Not really - wind energy isn't terribly efficient, and I'd hate to see vast
areas of countryside covered with those fuckers. Also, any storage mechanism
(i.e. battery) is going to cause a hell of al ot of pollution in its
manufacture and disposal.
IMO, nuclear power is the way to go, it's just not "trendy" to say it.
Another thing you and I agree on! There are two reactors within 30 miles of
where I live. I lose no sleep over them at all. As long as they are
well-maintained (unlike Chernobyl), they produce the cleanest energy going.

Jane
tw
2004-09-29 13:18:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by tw
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a
grain
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by tw
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is
very
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we
want
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if
it
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not
just
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters
in
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Jane
Since the rate of consumption is constantly increasing, we're going to
run
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
out of shit to burn soon enough.
The sun's a great source of energy, just no one's really spent the
time
Post by tw
or
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
money to harness and store it more effectively.
So is windenergy and waterenergy.
Not really - wind energy isn't terribly efficient, and I'd hate to see
vast
Post by tw
areas of countryside covered with those fuckers. Also, any storage
mechanism
Post by tw
(i.e. battery) is going to cause a hell of al ot of pollution in its
manufacture and disposal.
IMO, nuclear power is the way to go, it's just not "trendy" to say it.
Another thing you and I agree on!
We'll have to put a stop to that! I'm all for "renewable energy" but
windfarms ain't it. THe amount of turbines you'd have to put up to generate
the same output as one nuke plant is phenomenal. Notice how none of these
windpower freaks want teh turbines to be in their backyar either. Whereas
the likes of you and I have no problem living near Nuclear Power Stations.
Post by tw
There are two reactors within 30 miles of
where I live. I lose no sleep over them at all. As long as they are
well-maintained (unlike Chernobyl),
Was maintenance the problem at Chernobyl? I thought it was violation of
procedures and a design fault in the already slightly dicey use of water as
both moderator and cooler (i.e. you get a steam pocket in your water and
it's neither cooling nor moderating which leads to more steam/less water
whcih leads to even less moderation/cooling and so on until it all goes
KA-BOOOOHOOOOOM).
Post by tw
they produce the cleanest energy going.
It's an undeniable fact. I live about 20 miles from one of the Swedish ones
(there's only about 4 in the country and they put this one 10 miles across
the water from "Nuclear Free" Denmark - ha ha!). Seeing as it's built by the
same safety-nazis who design Volvos I have no worries about it melting down
anytime soon. I have also seen what they do with the waste - set in lead in
big concrete filled barrels which are then buried in a mine-type arrangement
in granite bedrock (which has such a high level of background radiation that
even if the casks miraculously split open the released radioactivity prolly
wouldn't register).

Trouble is, the luddites hear "nuclear power" and throw their hands up in
horror, even though coal and oil fired power stations have killed far more
people and produced more pollution than nukes ever will. THey can alwas go
and live in candle-lit caves if it bothers them so much.
Jean Guernon
2004-09-30 02:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a
grain
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is
very
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we
want
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if
it
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not
just
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters
in
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Jane
Since the rate of consumption is constantly increasing, we're going to
run
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
out of shit to burn soon enough.
The sun's a great source of energy, just no one's really spent the
time
Post by tw
or
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
money to harness and store it more effectively.
So is windenergy and waterenergy.
Not really - wind energy isn't terribly efficient, and I'd hate to see
vast
Post by tw
areas of countryside covered with those fuckers. Also, any storage
mechanism
Post by tw
(i.e. battery) is going to cause a hell of al ot of pollution in its
manufacture and disposal.
IMO, nuclear power is the way to go, it's just not "trendy" to say it.
Another thing you and I agree on! There are two reactors within 30 miles of
where I live. I lose no sleep over them at all. As long as they are
well-maintained (unlike Chernobyl), they produce the cleanest energy going.
Jane
What about the waste Jane? I won't ask clueless tw of course. But you,
what do you think will happen to the waste? in 200 years it still will
be there and still will need to be isolated in some geologically stable
underground facility maintained and guarded, in 500 years as well, you
think the cost of this is accounted for?

Tw is an ignorant little punk who has no clue about storing energy in
hydrogen plants. We have in Canada the land top produce wind power
equivalent of millions of barrels/day and there are ways to store them
and feed them in power line, or funnel them in H2 pipelines one day. But
conversion from hydrogen to electricity without a spark is a reality now.

J.
tw
2004-09-30 07:39:03 UTC
Permalink
Still obsessing over me you fould old anti-semite? LOL
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a
grain
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is
very
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we
want
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if
it
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not
just
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters
in
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Jane
Since the rate of consumption is constantly increasing, we're going to
run
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
out of shit to burn soon enough.
The sun's a great source of energy, just no one's really spent the
time
Post by tw
or
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
money to harness and store it more effectively.
So is windenergy and waterenergy.
Not really - wind energy isn't terribly efficient, and I'd hate to see
vast
Post by tw
areas of countryside covered with those fuckers. Also, any storage
mechanism
Post by tw
(i.e. battery) is going to cause a hell of al ot of pollution in its
manufacture and disposal.
IMO, nuclear power is the way to go, it's just not "trendy" to say it.
Another thing you and I agree on! There are two reactors within 30 miles of
where I live. I lose no sleep over them at all. As long as they are
well-maintained (unlike Chernobyl), they produce the cleanest energy going.
Jane
What about the waste Jane? I won't ask clueless tw of course. But you,
what do you think will happen to the waste? in 200 years it still will
be there and still will need to be isolated in some geologically stable
underground facility maintained and guarded, in 500 years as well, you
think the cost of this is accounted for?
Tw is an ignorant little punk who has no clue about storing energy in
hydrogen plants. We have in Canada the land top produce wind power
equivalent of millions of barrels/day and there are ways to store them
and feed them in power line, or funnel them in H2 pipelines one day. But
conversion from hydrogen to electricity without a spark is a reality now.
J.
Jane
2004-09-30 14:05:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a
grain
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is
very
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we
want
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if
it
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not
just
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters
in
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Jane
Since the rate of consumption is constantly increasing, we're going to
run
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
out of shit to burn soon enough.
The sun's a great source of energy, just no one's really spent the
time
Post by tw
or
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
money to harness and store it more effectively.
So is windenergy and waterenergy.
Not really - wind energy isn't terribly efficient, and I'd hate to see
vast
Post by tw
areas of countryside covered with those fuckers. Also, any storage
mechanism
Post by tw
(i.e. battery) is going to cause a hell of al ot of pollution in its
manufacture and disposal.
IMO, nuclear power is the way to go, it's just not "trendy" to say it.
Another thing you and I agree on! There are two reactors within 30 miles of
where I live. I lose no sleep over them at all. As long as they are
well-maintained (unlike Chernobyl), they produce the cleanest energy going.
Jane
What about the waste Jane? I won't ask clueless tw of course. But you,
what do you think will happen to the waste? in 200 years it still will
be there and still will need to be isolated in some geologically stable
underground facility maintained and guarded, in 500 years as well, you
think the cost of this is accounted for?
Well, we were in a competition for a new fusion plant. It was to be built
right beside the Darlington nuclear plant and would consume at least some of
the waste. The feds bailed on the project, however, so it will now go
elsewhere (Japan, Russia, some others were all competing for it). Our mayor
is now campaigning to have another reactor built on the site instead.
Post by Jean Guernon
Tw is an ignorant little punk who has no clue about storing energy in
hydrogen plants. We have in Canada the land top produce wind power
equivalent of millions of barrels/day and there are ways to store them
and feed them in power line, or funnel them in H2 pipelines one day. But
conversion from hydrogen to electricity without a spark is a reality now.
I did not mean to dismiss all alternate forms of energy; I encourage their
use, in fact. It is just everything that I have read lately indicates that
they cannot replace fossil fuels, at least at this point in time.

Jane
Jean Guernon
2004-09-30 16:33:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a
grain
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is
very
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we
want
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if
it
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not
just
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters
in
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Jane
Since the rate of consumption is constantly increasing, we're going to
run
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
out of shit to burn soon enough.
The sun's a great source of energy, just no one's really spent the
time
Post by tw
or
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
money to harness and store it more effectively.
So is windenergy and waterenergy.
Not really - wind energy isn't terribly efficient, and I'd hate to see
vast
Post by tw
areas of countryside covered with those fuckers. Also, any storage
mechanism
Post by tw
(i.e. battery) is going to cause a hell of al ot of pollution in its
manufacture and disposal.
IMO, nuclear power is the way to go, it's just not "trendy" to say it.
Another thing you and I agree on! There are two reactors within 30
miles of
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
where I live. I lose no sleep over them at all. As long as they are
well-maintained (unlike Chernobyl), they produce the cleanest energy
going.
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
Jane
What about the waste Jane? I won't ask clueless tw of course. But you,
what do you think will happen to the waste? in 200 years it still will
be there and still will need to be isolated in some geologically stable
underground facility maintained and guarded, in 500 years as well, you
think the cost of this is accounted for?
Well, we were in a competition for a new fusion plant. It was to be built
right beside the Darlington nuclear plant and would consume at least some of
the waste. The feds bailed on the project, however, so it will now go
elsewhere (Japan, Russia, some others were all competing for it). Our mayor
is now campaigning to have another reactor built on the site instead.
Post by Jean Guernon
Tw is an ignorant little punk who has no clue about storing energy in
hydrogen plants. We have in Canada the land to produce wind power
equivalent of millions of barrels/day and there are ways to store them
and feed them in power line, or funnel them in H2 pipelines one day. But
conversion from hydrogen to electricity without a spark is a reality now.
I did not mean to dismiss all alternate forms of energy; I encourage their
use, in fact. It is just everything that I have read lately indicates that
they cannot replace fossil fuels, at least at this point in time.
Jane
Fossil fuels cannot be replaced for organic chemistry stuff, anything
from pharmaceuticals to plastics to pavement, etc. etc., goods. But
nothing should prevent us form investing in the alternative energy for
fuel. The fossils fuels are non-renewable, and are limited. And so is
uranium, and I don't get into the byproducts here, only the supplies.

J.
Barbarossa
2004-09-30 23:19:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a
grain
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Jane
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is
very
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we
want
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if
it
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not
just
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters
in
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Jane
Since the rate of consumption is constantly increasing, we're going to
run
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
out of shit to burn soon enough.
The sun's a great source of energy, just no one's really spent the
time
Post by tw
or
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
money to harness and store it more effectively.
So is windenergy and waterenergy.
Not really - wind energy isn't terribly efficient, and I'd hate to see
vast
Post by tw
areas of countryside covered with those fuckers. Also, any storage
mechanism
Post by tw
(i.e. battery) is going to cause a hell of al ot of pollution in its
manufacture and disposal.
IMO, nuclear power is the way to go, it's just not "trendy" to say it.
Another thing you and I agree on! There are two reactors within 30
miles of
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
where I live. I lose no sleep over them at all. As long as they are
well-maintained (unlike Chernobyl), they produce the cleanest energy
going.
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
Jane
What about the waste Jane? I won't ask clueless tw of course. But you,
what do you think will happen to the waste? in 200 years it still will
be there and still will need to be isolated in some geologically stable
underground facility maintained and guarded, in 500 years as well, you
think the cost of this is accounted for?
Well, we were in a competition for a new fusion plant. It was to be built
right beside the Darlington nuclear plant and would consume at least some of
the waste. The feds bailed on the project, however, so it will now go
elsewhere (Japan, Russia, some others were all competing for it). Our mayor
is now campaigning to have another reactor built on the site instead.
Post by Jean Guernon
Tw is an ignorant little punk who has no clue about storing energy in
hydrogen plants. We have in Canada the land top produce wind power
equivalent of millions of barrels/day and there are ways to store them
and feed them in power line, or funnel them in H2 pipelines one day. But
conversion from hydrogen to electricity without a spark is a reality now.
I did not mean to dismiss all alternate forms of energy; I encourage their
use, in fact. It is just everything that I have read lately indicates that
they cannot replace fossil fuels, at least at this point in time.
And who is telling you that exactly? Oil-scientists?

Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Jane
2004-10-01 03:41:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a
grain
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is
very
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we
want
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even
if
Post by Jane
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
Post by tw
it
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not
just
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters
in
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change
is
Post by Jane
a
Post by Jane
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the
planet.
Post by Jane
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Jane
Since the rate of consumption is constantly increasing, we're
going
Post by Jane
to
Post by Jane
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
Post by tw
run
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
out of shit to burn soon enough.
The sun's a great source of energy, just no one's really spent the
time
Post by tw
or
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
money to harness and store it more effectively.
So is windenergy and waterenergy.
Not really - wind energy isn't terribly efficient, and I'd hate to see
vast
Post by tw
areas of countryside covered with those fuckers. Also, any storage
mechanism
Post by tw
(i.e. battery) is going to cause a hell of al ot of pollution in its
manufacture and disposal.
IMO, nuclear power is the way to go, it's just not "trendy" to say it.
Another thing you and I agree on! There are two reactors within 30
miles of
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
where I live. I lose no sleep over them at all. As long as they are
well-maintained (unlike Chernobyl), they produce the cleanest energy
going.
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by tw
Jane
What about the waste Jane? I won't ask clueless tw of course. But you,
what do you think will happen to the waste? in 200 years it still will
be there and still will need to be isolated in some geologically stable
underground facility maintained and guarded, in 500 years as well, you
think the cost of this is accounted for?
Well, we were in a competition for a new fusion plant. It was to be built
right beside the Darlington nuclear plant and would consume at least
some
Post by Jane
of
Post by Jane
the waste. The feds bailed on the project, however, so it will now go
elsewhere (Japan, Russia, some others were all competing for it). Our
mayor
Post by Jane
is now campaigning to have another reactor built on the site instead.
Post by Jean Guernon
Tw is an ignorant little punk who has no clue about storing energy in
hydrogen plants. We have in Canada the land top produce wind power
equivalent of millions of barrels/day and there are ways to store them
and feed them in power line, or funnel them in H2 pipelines one day. But
conversion from hydrogen to electricity without a spark is a reality
now.
Post by Jane
I did not mean to dismiss all alternate forms of energy; I encourage their
use, in fact. It is just everything that I have read lately indicates
that
Post by Jane
they cannot replace fossil fuels, at least at this point in time.
And who is telling you that exactly? Oil-scientists?
Read the book I suggested, or many of the "peak oil" websites.

Jane
Post by Jane
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
AltheaTolentino
2004-10-01 15:31:46 UTC
Permalink
In brief, we must not spoil nature. Humans must stop thinking that
they can be God. If anyone can alter the theory of evolution that that
would be the divine creator.And who would that be? we do not know.


Theories nowadays are unproven and pure hype.But anyway, it is
entertaining but not stimulating.
jha_amin
2004-10-02 00:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by AltheaTolentino
In brief, we must not spoil nature. Humans must stop thinking that
they can be God. If anyone can alter the theory of evolution that that
would be the divine creator.And who would that be? we do not know.
One capable of genetic manipulation would do quite well.
Absolute Zero
2004-09-30 15:29:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a
grain
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is
very
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we
want
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either.
Even if
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
Post by tw
it
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not
just
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also
dissenters
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
in
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Jane
Since the rate of consumption is constantly increasing, we're going to
run
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
out of shit to burn soon enough.
The sun's a great source of energy, just no one's really spent the
time
Post by tw
or
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
money to harness and store it more effectively.
So is windenergy and waterenergy.
Not really - wind energy isn't terribly efficient, and I'd hate to see
vast
Post by tw
areas of countryside covered with those fuckers. Also, any storage
mechanism
Post by tw
(i.e. battery) is going to cause a hell of al ot of pollution in its
manufacture and disposal.
IMO, nuclear power is the way to go, it's just not "trendy" to say it.
Another thing you and I agree on! There are two reactors within 30 miles of
where I live. I lose no sleep over them at all. As long as they are
well-maintained (unlike Chernobyl), they produce the cleanest
energy
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
going.
Jane
What about the waste Jane?
This new vitrification process looks good for 200,000 years.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/26/nnuke26.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/09/26/ixhome.html

A British company claims to have found the "holy grail" of the nuclear
energy industry - a solution to the problem of radioactive waste
disposal.

Amec, the London company that cleaned up Ground Zero in New York and
rebuilt the Pentagon after the September 11 attacks, says that its
latest process will enable nuclear waste to be stored safely for
200,000 years - longer than the radioactivity will last.

The company says that the method could transform the nuclear energy
industry and offer a viable alternative to fossil fuels.

The technique, called geomelting, has been tested successfully by the
American government, which is building a $53 million (£30 million)
pilot plant in Washington state. It intends to use the method on
300,000 gallons of liquid waste from atom bomb tests in the 1940s.

Amec has already held talks with British Nuclear Fuels, the
state-owned nuclear energy company that owns the reprocessing plant at
Sellafield in Cumbria and employs 23,000 people in 16 countries. It
plans to send a team to America to look at Amec's site in the next few
months.

The Department of Trade and Industry will also study the process.
Earlier this month an official said that a huge expansion of the
nuclear power industry - including the construction of 45 new reactors
- was essential if the Government were to meet its Kyoto target of
cutting "greenhouse gases". Many environmentalists, including James
Lovelock, have embraced nuclear power because it does not generate
greenhouse gases.

The Amec process involves mixing nuclear waste with soil or other
"glass-formers" in large, lined metal tanks. The mix - 20 per cent
waste and 80 per cent soil - is heated through two graphite electrodes
at temperatures of up to 3,000C. Gases, mostly carbon dioxide and
traces of hydrocarbons, are drawn off and treated separately. The
molten substance is then allowed to cool and forms a large glass block
that is harder than concrete.

The process, known as vitrification, was devised by the Battelle
research institute in Ohio, which also invented the photocopier and
the compact disc.

Amec, which has worldwide interests in gas, oil, mining and forestry -
and a turnover of £4.7 billion last year - bought the technology from
Battelle. It has an international licence for the process.

British Nuclear Fuels stores much of its waste in concrete, which
lasts up to 200 years. This has prompted widespread concern that
radioactive material will leak into the water supply and pose a
serious threat to public health and the environment. Some nuclear
waste at Sellafield is already vitrified by British Nuclear Fuels,
using a "continuous melting" method that stores the waste in 6ft
containers resembling milk churns. The churns are sealed remotely and
stored above ground. Last year 341 containers were filled with
vitrified waste.

The vitrification does not, however, last as long as the radioactivity
and "a certain amount of repackaging" is necessary, a spokesman said.

Amec said that its method produced a higher quality and longer-lasting
glass than British Nuclear Fuel's at three-quarters of the cost.

The new form of vitrified waste is more durable than British Nuclear
Fuel's because it contains fewer chemicals. Don Fraser, the global
director of Amec's GeoMelt projects, said: "The nuclear industry has
an image problem and most of the public concern is over the problem of
dealing with radioactive waste. We believe that GeoMelt solves that
problem and could transform the energy industry. It is more effective
than any other process that has been developed so far."

Mr Fraser said that the glass would last for "geological times" and
almost all the radiocative particles in it "would decay to
non-radioactive elements or compounds long before the glass corrodes
away to nothing". It would, he said, "pose no danger to the public or
whoever else is living there in thousands of years' time".

A spokesman for British Nuclear Fuels said: "We will have a good look
at this process. "We know that nuclear plants work and are safe, but
what to do about nuclear waste remains the biggest issue facing our
industry. We are always looking for innovative solutions for cleaning
up and reducing nuclear waste and we will look seriously to see if
geomelting can play a role in that."

However, Jean McSorley, a nuclear energy specialist at Greenpeace, the
environmental campaign group, said that geomelting was not a solution
to the problem of nuclear waste, but might be a step in the process of
managing it.

"There is, as yet, no environmentally acceptable solution to the
problem of nuclear waste," she said.

"We have always encouraged vitrification, but only time will tell
whether this is more effective than existing methods." Last week
Adrian Gault, the strategic development director at the Department of
Trade and Industry's energy strategy unit, said that nuclear power
would have to provide half of Britain's electricity needs if the
Government were to reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 60 per cent by
2050.

Tony Blair, the Prime Minister, described climate change as "the
biggest challenge facing the planet" and said it would be high on the
agenda when Britain takes over presidency of the G8 summit and the
European Union next year.

Nuclear power provides a fifth of Britain's electricity, but the
nuclear plants - which do not produce carbon dioxide - are due to be
closed gradually from 2008, and there are no plans to replace them.
Jean Guernon
2004-09-30 16:55:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with
a
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
Post by tw
grain
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That
is
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
Post by tw
very
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when
we
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
Post by tw
want
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either.
Even if
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
Post by tw
it
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions,
not
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
just
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also
dissenters
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
in
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change
is a
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After
all,
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the
planet.
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
Post by tw
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Jane
Since the rate of consumption is constantly increasing, we're
going to
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
Post by tw
run
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
out of shit to burn soon enough.
The sun's a great source of energy, just no one's really spent
the
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
time
Post by tw
or
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Barbarossa
money to harness and store it more effectively.
So is windenergy and waterenergy.
Not really - wind energy isn't terribly efficient, and I'd hate to
see
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
vast
Post by tw
areas of countryside covered with those fuckers. Also, any storage
mechanism
Post by tw
(i.e. battery) is going to cause a hell of al ot of pollution in
its
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
Post by tw
manufacture and disposal.
IMO, nuclear power is the way to go, it's just not "trendy" to say
it.
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
Another thing you and I agree on! There are two reactors within 30 miles of
where I live. I lose no sleep over them at all. As long as they
are
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
well-maintained (unlike Chernobyl), they produce the cleanest
energy
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
going.
Jane
What about the waste Jane?
This new vitrification process looks good for 200,000 years.
Well, that is what France has been doing for at least twenty years if I
recall. But it is very limited, how many block of glass with tiny
radioactive particle can one use? They still have to ship cargos full of
waste elsewhere...

J.
Post by Jane
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/26/nnuke26.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/09/26/ixhome.html
A British company claims to have found the "holy grail" of the nuclear
energy industry - a solution to the problem of radioactive waste
disposal.
Amec, the London company that cleaned up Ground Zero in New York and
rebuilt the Pentagon after the September 11 attacks, says that its
latest process will enable nuclear waste to be stored safely for
200,000 years - longer than the radioactivity will last.
The company says that the method could transform the nuclear energy
industry and offer a viable alternative to fossil fuels.
The technique, called geomelting, has been tested successfully by the
American government, which is building a $53 million (£30 million)
pilot plant in Washington state. It intends to use the method on
300,000 gallons of liquid waste from atom bomb tests in the 1940s.
Amec has already held talks with British Nuclear Fuels, the
state-owned nuclear energy company that owns the reprocessing plant at
Sellafield in Cumbria and employs 23,000 people in 16 countries. It
plans to send a team to America to look at Amec's site in the next few
months.
The Department of Trade and Industry will also study the process.
Earlier this month an official said that a huge expansion of the
nuclear power industry - including the construction of 45 new reactors
- was essential if the Government were to meet its Kyoto target of
cutting "greenhouse gases". Many environmentalists, including James
Lovelock, have embraced nuclear power because it does not generate
greenhouse gases.
The Amec process involves mixing nuclear waste with soil or other
"glass-formers" in large, lined metal tanks. The mix - 20 per cent
waste and 80 per cent soil - is heated through two graphite electrodes
at temperatures of up to 3,000C. Gases, mostly carbon dioxide and
traces of hydrocarbons, are drawn off and treated separately. The
molten substance is then allowed to cool and forms a large glass block
that is harder than concrete.
The process, known as vitrification, was devised by the Battelle
research institute in Ohio, which also invented the photocopier and
the compact disc.
Amec, which has worldwide interests in gas, oil, mining and forestry -
and a turnover of £4.7 billion last year - bought the technology from
Battelle. It has an international licence for the process.
British Nuclear Fuels stores much of its waste in concrete, which
lasts up to 200 years. This has prompted widespread concern that
radioactive material will leak into the water supply and pose a
serious threat to public health and the environment. Some nuclear
waste at Sellafield is already vitrified by British Nuclear Fuels,
using a "continuous melting" method that stores the waste in 6ft
containers resembling milk churns. The churns are sealed remotely and
stored above ground. Last year 341 containers were filled with
vitrified waste.
The vitrification does not, however, last as long as the radioactivity
and "a certain amount of repackaging" is necessary, a spokesman said.
Amec said that its method produced a higher quality and longer-lasting
glass than British Nuclear Fuel's at three-quarters of the cost.
The new form of vitrified waste is more durable than British Nuclear
Fuel's because it contains fewer chemicals. Don Fraser, the global
director of Amec's GeoMelt projects, said: "The nuclear industry has
an image problem and most of the public concern is over the problem of
dealing with radioactive waste. We believe that GeoMelt solves that
problem and could transform the energy industry. It is more effective
than any other process that has been developed so far."
Mr Fraser said that the glass would last for "geological times" and
almost all the radiocative particles in it "would decay to
non-radioactive elements or compounds long before the glass corrodes
away to nothing". It would, he said, "pose no danger to the public or
whoever else is living there in thousands of years' time".
A spokesman for British Nuclear Fuels said: "We will have a good look
at this process. "We know that nuclear plants work and are safe, but
what to do about nuclear waste remains the biggest issue facing our
industry. We are always looking for innovative solutions for cleaning
up and reducing nuclear waste and we will look seriously to see if
geomelting can play a role in that."
However, Jean McSorley, a nuclear energy specialist at Greenpeace, the
environmental campaign group, said that geomelting was not a solution
to the problem of nuclear waste, but might be a step in the process of
managing it.
"There is, as yet, no environmentally acceptable solution to the
problem of nuclear waste," she said.
"We have always encouraged vitrification, but only time will tell
whether this is more effective than existing methods." Last week
Adrian Gault, the strategic development director at the Department of
Trade and Industry's energy strategy unit, said that nuclear power
would have to provide half of Britain's electricity needs if the
Government were to reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 60 per cent by
2050.
Tony Blair, the Prime Minister, described climate change as "the
biggest challenge facing the planet" and said it would be high on the
agenda when Britain takes over presidency of the G8 summit and the
European Union next year.
Nuclear power provides a fifth of Britain's electricity, but the
nuclear plants - which do not produce carbon dioxide - are due to be
closed gradually from 2008, and there are no plans to replace them.
Barbarossa
2004-09-28 23:06:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a grain of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of Washington.
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is very bad
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we want to
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the Republicans
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if it were
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not just
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters in the
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a natural
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all, earth's
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Those dissenters are usually found as "scientists" working for the
industrials
who don't want them to produce frightning news. And the number of
dissidents is slowly decreasing.

The Earth has had its fluctuations in general temperature, but there has
always been a correlation to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and
the average temperature. What scientist do agree upon in a large majority
is that the amount of CO2 in our atmosphere has indeed increased the
last century caused by environmental pollution by the industry, the
usuage of cars and the heating of our homes. The overinfluencing is indeed
taking place. Only "scientists" with debatable jobs in the industry claim
otherwise. Highly recommended scientist such as Stephen Hawking are
certainly not on your side of the political agenda.

Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Jane
2004-09-29 04:14:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a grain
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is very
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we want
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if it
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not just
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters in the
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Those dissenters are usually found as "scientists" working for the
industrials
who don't want them to produce frightning news. And the number of
dissidents is slowly decreasing.
The Earth has had its fluctuations in general temperature, but there has
always been a correlation to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and
the average temperature. What scientist do agree upon in a large majority
is that the amount of CO2 in our atmosphere has indeed increased the
last century caused by environmental pollution by the industry, the
usuage of cars and the heating of our homes. The overinfluencing is indeed
taking place. Only "scientists" with debatable jobs in the industry claim
otherwise. Highly recommended scientist such as Stephen Hawking are
certainly not on your side of the political agenda.
I was playing "Devil's Advocate", truth be told. My main point is that
Kyoto targets only industrialized countries, while those with emerging
economies may emit at will.

I think it will be a moot point, anyway, as the end of the age of cheap oil
is nigh. The peak oil theory is one I give credence to, as it is advocated
not by the usual band of freaks left over from the 60s but by geologists in
the field. I'm sure we're in for a rocky road adjusting.

Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Marvin The Paranoid Android
2004-09-29 10:47:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a grain
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is very
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we want
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if it
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not just
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters in
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Those dissenters are usually found as "scientists" working for the
industrials
who don't want them to produce frightning news. And the number of
dissidents is slowly decreasing.
The Earth has had its fluctuations in general temperature, but there has
always been a correlation to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and
the average temperature. What scientist do agree upon in a large majority
is that the amount of CO2 in our atmosphere has indeed increased the
last century caused by environmental pollution by the industry, the
usuage of cars and the heating of our homes. The overinfluencing is indeed
taking place. Only "scientists" with debatable jobs in the industry claim
otherwise. Highly recommended scientist such as Stephen Hawking are
certainly not on your side of the political agenda.
I was playing "Devil's Advocate", truth be told. My main point is that
Kyoto targets only industrialized countries, while those with emerging
economies may emit at will.
I think it will be a moot point, anyway, as the end of the age of cheap oil
is nigh. The peak oil theory is one I give credence to, as it is advocated
not by the usual band of freaks left over from the 60s but by geologists in
the field. I'm sure we're in for a rocky road adjusting.
Jane
LOL ... what would be the diff between the '60's freaks and the geologists
if they both reached the same conclucions?

I don't think you need a degree or to be a rocket scientist to realize that
the Earth is finite and everything on it or in it is limited. I think the
'60's freaks were the ones telling people to change the way they lived so as
to do as little harm as possible to the enviroment. Are you going to wait
for the eggheads to come along and tell you this before you start to believe
it?

:-)



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.767 / Virus Database: 514 - Release Date: 9/21/04
Barbarossa
2004-09-29 12:39:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a
grain
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is
very
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we
want
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if
it
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not just
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters in
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Those dissenters are usually found as "scientists" working for the
industrials
who don't want them to produce frightning news. And the number of
dissidents is slowly decreasing.
The Earth has had its fluctuations in general temperature, but there has
always been a correlation to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and
the average temperature. What scientist do agree upon in a large
majority
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
is that the amount of CO2 in our atmosphere has indeed increased the
last century caused by environmental pollution by the industry, the
usuage of cars and the heating of our homes. The overinfluencing is
indeed
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
taking place. Only "scientists" with debatable jobs in the industry
claim
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
otherwise. Highly recommended scientist such as Stephen Hawking are
certainly not on your side of the political agenda.
I was playing "Devil's Advocate", truth be told. My main point is that
Kyoto targets only industrialized countries, while those with emerging
economies may emit at will.
I think it will be a moot point, anyway, as the end of the age of cheap
oil
Post by Jane
is nigh. The peak oil theory is one I give credence to, as it is
advocated
Post by Jane
not by the usual band of freaks left over from the 60s but by geologists
in
Post by Jane
the field. I'm sure we're in for a rocky road adjusting.
Jane
LOL ... what would be the diff between the '60's freaks and the geologists
if they both reached the same conclucions?
I don't think you need a degree or to be a rocket scientist to realize
that
Post by Barbarossa
the Earth is finite and everything on it or in it is limited. I think the
'60's freaks were the ones telling people to change the way they lived so as
to do as little harm as possible to the enviroment. Are you going to wait
for the eggheads to come along and tell you this before you start to believe
it?
Regarding this issue it would have been a lot better if the world has
listened
to those hippies from the 60s. Our energyproviders would have been solar-
wind- and waterenergy already with cars using H2. We listened too much
to scientists who were connected with the industry and to politicians who
are just in power to suit the militairy industrial complex.

Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
tw
2004-09-29 13:31:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a
grain
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is
very
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we
want
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if
it
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not
just
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters
in
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Those dissenters are usually found as "scientists" working for the
industrials
who don't want them to produce frightning news. And the number of
dissidents is slowly decreasing.
The Earth has had its fluctuations in general temperature, but there
has
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
always been a correlation to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and
the average temperature. What scientist do agree upon in a large
majority
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
is that the amount of CO2 in our atmosphere has indeed increased the
last century caused by environmental pollution by the industry, the
usuage of cars and the heating of our homes. The overinfluencing is
indeed
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
taking place. Only "scientists" with debatable jobs in the industry
claim
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
otherwise. Highly recommended scientist such as Stephen Hawking are
certainly not on your side of the political agenda.
I was playing "Devil's Advocate", truth be told. My main point is that
Kyoto targets only industrialized countries, while those with emerging
economies may emit at will.
I think it will be a moot point, anyway, as the end of the age of cheap
oil
Post by Jane
is nigh. The peak oil theory is one I give credence to, as it is
advocated
Post by Jane
not by the usual band of freaks left over from the 60s but by geologists
in
Post by Jane
the field. I'm sure we're in for a rocky road adjusting.
Jane
LOL ... what would be the diff between the '60's freaks and the geologists
if they both reached the same conclucions?
I don't think you need a degree or to be a rocket scientist to realize
that
Post by Barbarossa
the Earth is finite and everything on it or in it is limited. I think the
'60's freaks were the ones telling people to change the way they lived
so
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
as
Post by Barbarossa
to do as little harm as possible to the enviroment. Are you going to wait
for the eggheads to come along and tell you this before you start to
believe
Post by Barbarossa
it?
Regarding this issue it would have been a lot better if the world has
listened
to those hippies from the 60s.
We listened to the fuckers TOO MUCH with regard to power generation.
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Our energyproviders would have been solar-
wind- and waterenergy already with cars using H2.
Please look into how many wind-turbines it takes to generate as much energy
as ONE nuclear power plant.
Please look at how much energy you need to expend to produce hydrogen from
water.
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
We listened too much
to scientists who were connected with the industry and to politicians who
are just in power to suit the militairy industrial complex.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Jane
2004-09-29 17:03:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a
grain
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is
very
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we
want
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if
it
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not
just
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters
in
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Those dissenters are usually found as "scientists" working for the
industrials
who don't want them to produce frightning news. And the number of
dissidents is slowly decreasing.
The Earth has had its fluctuations in general temperature, but there
has
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
always been a correlation to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and
the average temperature. What scientist do agree upon in a large
majority
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
is that the amount of CO2 in our atmosphere has indeed increased the
last century caused by environmental pollution by the industry, the
usuage of cars and the heating of our homes. The overinfluencing is
indeed
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
taking place. Only "scientists" with debatable jobs in the industry
claim
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
otherwise. Highly recommended scientist such as Stephen Hawking are
certainly not on your side of the political agenda.
I was playing "Devil's Advocate", truth be told. My main point is that
Kyoto targets only industrialized countries, while those with emerging
economies may emit at will.
I think it will be a moot point, anyway, as the end of the age of cheap
oil
Post by Jane
is nigh. The peak oil theory is one I give credence to, as it is
advocated
Post by Jane
not by the usual band of freaks left over from the 60s but by geologists
in
Post by Jane
the field. I'm sure we're in for a rocky road adjusting.
Jane
LOL ... what would be the diff between the '60's freaks and the geologists
if they both reached the same conclucions?
I don't think you need a degree or to be a rocket scientist to realize
that
Post by Barbarossa
the Earth is finite and everything on it or in it is limited. I think the
'60's freaks were the ones telling people to change the way they lived
so
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
as
Post by Barbarossa
to do as little harm as possible to the enviroment. Are you going to wait
for the eggheads to come along and tell you this before you start to
believe
Post by Barbarossa
it?
Regarding this issue it would have been a lot better if the world has
listened
to those hippies from the 60s. Our energyproviders would have been solar-
wind- and waterenergy already with cars using H2. We listened too much
to scientists who were connected with the industry and to politicians who
are just in power to suit the militairy industrial complex.
You should read the peak oil bible, "The Party's Over", by Richard Heinberg.
In it, he looks at alternative fuels and explains why they will never work
on a large scale (the one that stuck in my mind was ethanol...we would need
every field we now grow corn on...leaving none for human/ animal
consumption...and we still couldn't power a fraction of our cars). He
explains why hydrogen, wind and solar power also will not work. It's an
interesting read.

Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Marvin The Paranoid Android
2004-09-29 18:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a
grain
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That
is
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
very
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when
we
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
want
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either.
Even
Post by Jane
if
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
it
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not
just
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters
in
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change
is
Post by Jane
a
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After
all,
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the
planet.
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Those dissenters are usually found as "scientists" working for the
industrials
who don't want them to produce frightning news. And the number of
dissidents is slowly decreasing.
The Earth has had its fluctuations in general temperature, but there
has
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
always been a correlation to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and
the average temperature. What scientist do agree upon in a large
majority
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
is that the amount of CO2 in our atmosphere has indeed increased the
last century caused by environmental pollution by the industry, the
usuage of cars and the heating of our homes. The overinfluencing is
indeed
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
taking place. Only "scientists" with debatable jobs in the industry
claim
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
otherwise. Highly recommended scientist such as Stephen Hawking are
certainly not on your side of the political agenda.
I was playing "Devil's Advocate", truth be told. My main point is
that
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Kyoto targets only industrialized countries, while those with emerging
economies may emit at will.
I think it will be a moot point, anyway, as the end of the age of
cheap
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
oil
Post by Jane
is nigh. The peak oil theory is one I give credence to, as it is
advocated
Post by Jane
not by the usual band of freaks left over from the 60s but by
geologists
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
in
Post by Jane
the field. I'm sure we're in for a rocky road adjusting.
Jane
LOL ... what would be the diff between the '60's freaks and the
geologists
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
if they both reached the same conclucions?
I don't think you need a degree or to be a rocket scientist to realize
that
Post by Barbarossa
the Earth is finite and everything on it or in it is limited. I think
the
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
'60's freaks were the ones telling people to change the way they lived
so
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
as
Post by Barbarossa
to do as little harm as possible to the enviroment. Are you going to
wait
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
for the eggheads to come along and tell you this before you start to
believe
Post by Barbarossa
it?
Regarding this issue it would have been a lot better if the world has
listened
to those hippies from the 60s. Our energyproviders would have been solar-
wind- and waterenergy already with cars using H2. We listened too much
to scientists who were connected with the industry and to politicians who
are just in power to suit the militairy industrial complex.
You should read the peak oil bible, "The Party's Over", by Richard Heinberg.
In it, he looks at alternative fuels and explains why they will never work
on a large scale (the one that stuck in my mind was ethanol...we would need
every field we now grow corn on...leaving none for human/ animal
consumption...and we still couldn't power a fraction of our cars). He
explains why hydrogen, wind and solar power also will not work. It's an
interesting read.
Jane
Um ... sure ... assuming we don't try to change the way we live.

Better organized urban areas could reduce the need for gas-powered
transport. Being able to walk for groceries ( more frequent trips with
lighter loads, bicycles with saddle bags, 'granny-carts' ) and other
necessities wouldn't only bring down living expenses but would be much
healthier for the enviroment as well as yourself.

I honestly think it starts with the individual and not large scale
endeavours. Hell, we're looking at getting the frig out of the city ( I'm
sick of having to drive my kids everywhere ) and looking at a place 30
minutes away ... small town, pop of approx 9,000. Everything is nearby
within a 3 minute bike ride or 10 minute walk. Two 'major' grocery stores, a
movie theatre in a converted Church basement ( for $30 we covered admission
for 4 plus a round of popcorn and drinks for all of us ), a bowling alley,
schools, everything ... all manageable without a stupid vehicle. And the
downtown area is turn of the century and incredibly vibrant with excellent
restaraunts and useful stores ( not 'boutiques' ). I'm so looking forward to
this it's not funny.

I think something other then oil that will have to be addressed in the near
future too is electrical consumption. Someone mentioned nuclear as being the
more realistic option. But those babies are nasty when it's time to
decommission. Again, I think a combination of personal conservation, plus
solar with high-density storage capacity would be the most likely scenario
... but this will be simply to reduce demand on traditional sources of
electrical power such as coal, oil, hydro, and nuclear.

As resources become scarce, prices will increase. Something is going to have
to change whether we like it or not. May as well plan ahead and try to keep
a 'sunny' spin on it.... :-)

Cheers!



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.767 / Virus Database: 514 - Release Date: 9/21/04
Michael Johnathan McDonald
2004-09-29 23:30:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
I honestly think it starts with the individual and not large scale
endeavours.
Whoops, Marvin that is a right-wing philosophy. Be careful you can
actually make something happen with that type of attitude ;)
Marvin The Paranoid Android
2004-09-29 23:51:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Johnathan McDonald
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
I honestly think it starts with the individual and not large scale
endeavours.
Whoops, Marvin that is a right-wing philosophy. Be careful you can
actually make something happen with that type of attitude ;)
Yeah, but I still enjoy universal health care and heavily subsidized post
secondary education !

I generally vote Conservative anyways ...


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.767 / Virus Database: 514 - Release Date: 9/21/04
Jane
2004-09-30 03:38:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it
with
Post by Jane
a
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
grain
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That
is
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
very
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when
we
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
want
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either.
Even
Post by Jane
if
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
it
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions,
not
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
just
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also
dissenters
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
in
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change
is
Post by Jane
a
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After
all,
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the
planet.
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Those dissenters are usually found as "scientists" working for the
industrials
who don't want them to produce frightning news. And the number of
dissidents is slowly decreasing.
The Earth has had its fluctuations in general temperature, but
there
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
has
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
always been a correlation to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere
and
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
the average temperature. What scientist do agree upon in a large
majority
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
is that the amount of CO2 in our atmosphere has indeed increased
the
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
last century caused by environmental pollution by the industry,
the
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
usuage of cars and the heating of our homes. The overinfluencing
is
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
indeed
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
taking place. Only "scientists" with debatable jobs in the
industry
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
claim
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
otherwise. Highly recommended scientist such as Stephen Hawking
are
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
certainly not on your side of the political agenda.
I was playing "Devil's Advocate", truth be told. My main point is
that
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Kyoto targets only industrialized countries, while those with
emerging
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
economies may emit at will.
I think it will be a moot point, anyway, as the end of the age of
cheap
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
oil
Post by Jane
is nigh. The peak oil theory is one I give credence to, as it is
advocated
Post by Jane
not by the usual band of freaks left over from the 60s but by
geologists
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
in
Post by Jane
the field. I'm sure we're in for a rocky road adjusting.
Jane
LOL ... what would be the diff between the '60's freaks and the
geologists
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
if they both reached the same conclucions?
I don't think you need a degree or to be a rocket scientist to realize
that
Post by Barbarossa
the Earth is finite and everything on it or in it is limited. I think
the
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
'60's freaks were the ones telling people to change the way they lived
so
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
as
Post by Barbarossa
to do as little harm as possible to the enviroment. Are you going to
wait
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
for the eggheads to come along and tell you this before you start to
believe
Post by Barbarossa
it?
Regarding this issue it would have been a lot better if the world has
listened
to those hippies from the 60s. Our energyproviders would have been
solar-
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
wind- and waterenergy already with cars using H2. We listened too much
to scientists who were connected with the industry and to politicians
who
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
are just in power to suit the militairy industrial complex.
You should read the peak oil bible, "The Party's Over", by Richard
Heinberg.
Post by Jane
In it, he looks at alternative fuels and explains why they will never work
on a large scale (the one that stuck in my mind was ethanol...we would
need
Post by Jane
every field we now grow corn on...leaving none for human/ animal
consumption...and we still couldn't power a fraction of our cars). He
explains why hydrogen, wind and solar power also will not work. It's an
interesting read.
Jane
Um ... sure ... assuming we don't try to change the way we live.
Better organized urban areas could reduce the need for gas-powered
transport. Being able to walk for groceries ( more frequent trips with
lighter loads, bicycles with saddle bags, 'granny-carts' ) and other
necessities wouldn't only bring down living expenses but would be much
healthier for the enviroment as well as yourself.
I honestly think it starts with the individual and not large scale
endeavours. Hell, we're looking at getting the frig out of the city ( I'm
sick of having to drive my kids everywhere ) and looking at a place 30
minutes away ... small town, pop of approx 9,000. Everything is nearby
within a 3 minute bike ride or 10 minute walk. Two 'major' grocery stores, a
movie theatre in a converted Church basement ( for $30 we covered admission
for 4 plus a round of popcorn and drinks for all of us ), a bowling alley,
schools, everything ... all manageable without a stupid vehicle. And the
downtown area is turn of the century and incredibly vibrant with excellent
restaraunts and useful stores ( not 'boutiques' ). I'm so looking forward to
this it's not funny.
I hate the city. we live in the country, in a small village. If not for
our jobs, we would not need our vehicles that much. We are both in the auto
manufacturing business, so believe me, I do not enjoy reading about peak
oil! :)

We grow a lot of our own produce and buy much of our meat directly from
local farmers. We heat mainly with wood, supplemented by oil. I can cook
the old-fashioned way...give me some beans, a meaty bone, some veggies and
herbs and I can make a feast! The problem is, there are many, many people
today that eat everything out of a box and think "cooking" is making Kraft
Dinner. While my family has a long way to go to be self-sufficient, some
people will not be capable of it. I still think it will a huge, disruptive
change.
Post by Jane
I think something other then oil that will have to be addressed in the near
future too is electrical consumption. Someone mentioned nuclear as being the
more realistic option. But those babies are nasty when it's time to
decommission. Again, I think a combination of personal conservation, plus
solar with high-density storage capacity would be the most likely scenario
... but this will be simply to reduce demand on traditional sources of
electrical power such as coal, oil, hydro, and nuclear.
As resources become scarce, prices will increase. Something is going to have
to change whether we like it or not. May as well plan ahead and try to keep
a 'sunny' spin on it.... :-)
True. My hydro bills are running at $200 Canuck-bucks a month in
summer...and that's with controls. God only knows what they will be when
the controls come off next May :( !
Post by Jane
Cheers!
Marvin The Paranoid Android
2004-09-30 09:59:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it
with
Post by Jane
a
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
grain
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out
of
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it.
That
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
is
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
very
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So,
when
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
we
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
want
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better
the
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either.
Even
Post by Jane
if
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
it
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions,
not
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
just
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also
dissenters
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
in
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate
change
Post by Jane
is
Post by Jane
a
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities.
After
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
all,
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the
planet.
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Those dissenters are usually found as "scientists" working for
the
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
industrials
who don't want them to produce frightning news. And the number
of
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
dissidents is slowly decreasing.
The Earth has had its fluctuations in general temperature, but
there
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
has
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
always been a correlation to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere
and
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
the average temperature. What scientist do agree upon in a large
majority
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
is that the amount of CO2 in our atmosphere has indeed increased
the
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
last century caused by environmental pollution by the industry,
the
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
usuage of cars and the heating of our homes. The
overinfluencing
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
is
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
indeed
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
taking place. Only "scientists" with debatable jobs in the
industry
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
claim
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
otherwise. Highly recommended scientist such as Stephen Hawking
are
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
certainly not on your side of the political agenda.
I was playing "Devil's Advocate", truth be told. My main point is
that
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Kyoto targets only industrialized countries, while those with
emerging
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
economies may emit at will.
I think it will be a moot point, anyway, as the end of the age of
cheap
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
oil
Post by Jane
is nigh. The peak oil theory is one I give credence to, as it is
advocated
Post by Jane
not by the usual band of freaks left over from the 60s but by
geologists
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
in
Post by Jane
the field. I'm sure we're in for a rocky road adjusting.
Jane
LOL ... what would be the diff between the '60's freaks and the
geologists
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
if they both reached the same conclucions?
I don't think you need a degree or to be a rocket scientist to
realize
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
that
Post by Barbarossa
the Earth is finite and everything on it or in it is limited. I
think
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
the
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
'60's freaks were the ones telling people to change the way they
lived
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
so
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
as
Post by Barbarossa
to do as little harm as possible to the enviroment. Are you going to
wait
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
for the eggheads to come along and tell you this before you start to
believe
Post by Barbarossa
it?
Regarding this issue it would have been a lot better if the world has
listened
to those hippies from the 60s. Our energyproviders would have been
solar-
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
wind- and waterenergy already with cars using H2. We listened too much
to scientists who were connected with the industry and to politicians
who
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
are just in power to suit the militairy industrial complex.
You should read the peak oil bible, "The Party's Over", by Richard
Heinberg.
Post by Jane
In it, he looks at alternative fuels and explains why they will never
work
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
on a large scale (the one that stuck in my mind was ethanol...we would
need
Post by Jane
every field we now grow corn on...leaving none for human/ animal
consumption...and we still couldn't power a fraction of our cars). He
explains why hydrogen, wind and solar power also will not work. It's an
interesting read.
Jane
Um ... sure ... assuming we don't try to change the way we live.
Better organized urban areas could reduce the need for gas-powered
transport. Being able to walk for groceries ( more frequent trips with
lighter loads, bicycles with saddle bags, 'granny-carts' ) and other
necessities wouldn't only bring down living expenses but would be much
healthier for the enviroment as well as yourself.
I honestly think it starts with the individual and not large scale
endeavours. Hell, we're looking at getting the frig out of the city ( I'm
sick of having to drive my kids everywhere ) and looking at a place 30
minutes away ... small town, pop of approx 9,000. Everything is nearby
within a 3 minute bike ride or 10 minute walk. Two 'major' grocery
stores,
Post by Jane
a
Post by Jane
movie theatre in a converted Church basement ( for $30 we covered
admission
Post by Jane
for 4 plus a round of popcorn and drinks for all of us ), a bowling alley,
schools, everything ... all manageable without a stupid vehicle. And the
downtown area is turn of the century and incredibly vibrant with excellent
restaraunts and useful stores ( not 'boutiques' ). I'm so looking
forward
Post by Jane
to
Post by Jane
this it's not funny.
I hate the city. we live in the country, in a small village. If not for
our jobs, we would not need our vehicles that much. We are both in the auto
manufacturing business, so believe me, I do not enjoy reading about peak
oil! :)
That's where we're heading ... my wife works in the city but there's a bus
that runs from where we're looking to city center.
Post by Jane
We grow a lot of our own produce and buy much of our meat directly from
local farmers. We heat mainly with wood, supplemented by oil. I can cook
the old-fashioned way...give me some beans, a meaty bone, some veggies and
herbs and I can make a feast! The problem is, there are many, many people
today that eat everything out of a box and think "cooking" is making Kraft
Dinner. While my family has a long way to go to be self-sufficient, some
people will not be capable of it. I still think it will a huge, disruptive
change.
That's awesome. Easy on the beans tho !

And you are correct about 'KD' generation.

Becoming self-sufficient would be the extreme. I think we're stuck working
as a society.
Post by Jane
Post by Jane
I think something other then oil that will have to be addressed in the
near
Post by Jane
future too is electrical consumption. Someone mentioned nuclear as being
the
Post by Jane
more realistic option. But those babies are nasty when it's time to
decommission. Again, I think a combination of personal conservation, plus
solar with high-density storage capacity would be the most likely scenario
... but this will be simply to reduce demand on traditional sources of
electrical power such as coal, oil, hydro, and nuclear.
As resources become scarce, prices will increase. Something is going to
have
Post by Jane
to change whether we like it or not. May as well plan ahead and try to
keep
Post by Jane
a 'sunny' spin on it.... :-)
True. My hydro bills are running at $200 Canuck-bucks a month in
summer...and that's with controls. God only knows what they will be when
the controls come off next May :( !
Same here ...




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.771 / Virus Database: 518 - Release Date: 9/28/04
Barbarossa
2004-09-29 20:42:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a
grain
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That
is
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
very
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when
we
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
want
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either.
Even
Post by Jane
if
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
it
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not
just
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters
in
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change
is
Post by Jane
a
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After
all,
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the
planet.
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Those dissenters are usually found as "scientists" working for the
industrials
who don't want them to produce frightning news. And the number of
dissidents is slowly decreasing.
The Earth has had its fluctuations in general temperature, but there
has
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
always been a correlation to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and
the average temperature. What scientist do agree upon in a large
majority
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
is that the amount of CO2 in our atmosphere has indeed increased the
last century caused by environmental pollution by the industry, the
usuage of cars and the heating of our homes. The overinfluencing is
indeed
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
taking place. Only "scientists" with debatable jobs in the industry
claim
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
otherwise. Highly recommended scientist such as Stephen Hawking are
certainly not on your side of the political agenda.
I was playing "Devil's Advocate", truth be told. My main point is
that
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Kyoto targets only industrialized countries, while those with emerging
economies may emit at will.
I think it will be a moot point, anyway, as the end of the age of
cheap
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
oil
Post by Jane
is nigh. The peak oil theory is one I give credence to, as it is
advocated
Post by Jane
not by the usual band of freaks left over from the 60s but by
geologists
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
in
Post by Jane
the field. I'm sure we're in for a rocky road adjusting.
Jane
LOL ... what would be the diff between the '60's freaks and the
geologists
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
if they both reached the same conclucions?
I don't think you need a degree or to be a rocket scientist to realize
that
Post by Barbarossa
the Earth is finite and everything on it or in it is limited. I think
the
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
'60's freaks were the ones telling people to change the way they lived
so
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
as
Post by Barbarossa
to do as little harm as possible to the enviroment. Are you going to
wait
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
for the eggheads to come along and tell you this before you start to
believe
Post by Barbarossa
it?
Regarding this issue it would have been a lot better if the world has
listened
to those hippies from the 60s. Our energyproviders would have been solar-
wind- and waterenergy already with cars using H2. We listened too much
to scientists who were connected with the industry and to politicians who
are just in power to suit the militairy industrial complex.
You should read the peak oil bible, "The Party's Over", by Richard Heinberg.
In it, he looks at alternative fuels and explains why they will never work
on a large scale (the one that stuck in my mind was ethanol...we would need
every field we now grow corn on...leaving none for human/ animal
consumption...and we still couldn't power a fraction of our cars). He
explains why hydrogen, wind and solar power also will not work. It's an
interesting read.
Probably not on a wordlwide scale, but when done correctly a country like
The Netherlands bordering the North Sea, with a riverdelta and on 52° N
will be able to live by wind-, water- and solarenergy fine.

Once, besides turf, The Netherlands lived by wind- en waterenergy alone!
Problem is that it takes decades to form layers of turf.

Problem is that those jerks, the Green parties, abhor the idea of so many
windmills in the landscape while I like to see those!

I am not against nuclear energy, it could be an addition, I am not in favour
of overloading our planet with nuclear plants, especially not in this era of
terrorism. Nuclear energy could help us close the oil era, transform to
water-, solar- and windenergy, while studying and implementing other
sources as well.

Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Jean Guernon
2004-09-30 02:53:04 UTC
Permalink
Solar farms on a small scale works not even in southern states and
tropical countries, also in France, and a few mills of wind power
generates enough electricity to feed towns in Scandinavian countries,
england, and Quebec.

In Quebec, a few km sq of area in Gaspesia will generate nearly the 1GW
required by the whole region.
http://www.regie-energie.qc.ca/300/312/a-98-02.pdf
------------------------------------------------------------------------
3.3.2.6 Impact sur le réseau Puisqu’il est possible que les besoins et
les conditions économiques suscitent un développement accéléré et que
les deuxième et troisième phases puissent atteindre 100 MW à 150 MW
installés par année, la capacité totale d’un parc éolien en Gaspésie
pourrait atteindre éventuellement près de 900 MW et serait près de la
demande de pointe annuelle locale, soit environ 1 000 MW et risque
souvent d’excéder la demande de la région à d’autres moments.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can imagine easily 1000 of those in the Northern unused tundra. I
mean if only investment is the problem. If they see it that way, this 1
gigawatt of production a day takes a decade to build but then produces
the installed energy equivalent of 15,157.895 bbl a day. 1000 of these
would give off eq. 15 millions barrels a day. The fact is that it can be
sent directly in power lines and stored as hydrogen in specially
designed plants to be used at peek hours.

Even when there will be a switch to hydrogen it will not need to be sent
in pipelines as hydrogen is easy to generate and can always be produced
elsewhere. The local hydrogen plants would be for storage capacity.

Anyway, it is not for nothing that Greenpeace says that we can suffice
the planet in energy with wind power in their recent ad.

along with Armory Lovins improvement on efficiency, wind power can be
quite an asset to counter greenhouse gases catastrophic effects and
middle east shortages, which makes China vote against action in Sudan
for instance. Petroleum wouldn't sway the West, but it does make the
main weasels of the permanent SC (safe Russia) jump in loop for Muslim
ideology.

J.
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a
grain
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That
is
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
very
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when
we
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
want
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even
if
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
it
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not
just
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters
in
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is
a
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After
all,
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the
planet.
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Those dissenters are usually found as "scientists" working for the
industrials
who don't want them to produce frightning news. And the number of
dissidents is slowly decreasing.
The Earth has had its fluctuations in general temperature, but there
has
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
always been a correlation to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and
the average temperature. What scientist do agree upon in a large
majority
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
is that the amount of CO2 in our atmosphere has indeed increased the
last century caused by environmental pollution by the industry, the
usuage of cars and the heating of our homes. The overinfluencing is
indeed
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
taking place. Only "scientists" with debatable jobs in the industry
claim
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
otherwise. Highly recommended scientist such as Stephen Hawking are
certainly not on your side of the political agenda.
I was playing "Devil's Advocate", truth be told. My main point is
that
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Kyoto targets only industrialized countries, while those with emerging
economies may emit at will.
I think it will be a moot point, anyway, as the end of the age of
cheap
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
oil
Post by Jane
is nigh. The peak oil theory is one I give credence to, as it is
advocated
Post by Jane
not by the usual band of freaks left over from the 60s but by
geologists
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
in
Post by Jane
the field. I'm sure we're in for a rocky road adjusting.
Jane
LOL ... what would be the diff between the '60's freaks and the
geologists
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
if they both reached the same conclucions?
I don't think you need a degree or to be a rocket scientist to realize
that
Post by Barbarossa
the Earth is finite and everything on it or in it is limited. I think
the
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
'60's freaks were the ones telling people to change the way they lived
so
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
as
Post by Barbarossa
to do as little harm as possible to the enviroment. Are you going to
wait
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
for the eggheads to come along and tell you this before you start to
believe
Post by Barbarossa
it?
Regarding this issue it would have been a lot better if the world has
listened
to those hippies from the 60s. Our energyproviders would have been solar-
wind- and waterenergy already with cars using H2. We listened too much
to scientists who were connected with the industry and to politicians who
are just in power to suit the militairy industrial complex.
You should read the peak oil bible, "The Party's Over", by Richard Heinberg.
In it, he looks at alternative fuels and explains why they will never work
on a large scale (the one that stuck in my mind was ethanol...we would need
every field we now grow corn on...leaving none for human/ animal
consumption...and we still couldn't power a fraction of our cars). He
explains why hydrogen, wind and solar power also will not work. It's an
interesting read.
Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
tw
2004-09-30 07:35:43 UTC
Permalink
Lying old fraud
Post by Jean Guernon
Solar farms on a small scale works not even in southern states and
tropical countries, also in France, and a few mills of wind power
generates enough electricity to feed towns in Scandinavian countries,
england, and Quebec.
In Quebec, a few km sq of area in Gaspesia will generate nearly the 1GW
required by the whole region.
http://www.regie-energie.qc.ca/300/312/a-98-02.pdf
------------------------------------------------------------------------
3.3.2.6 Impact sur le réseau Puisqu’il est possible que les besoins et
les conditions économiques suscitent un développement accéléré et que
les deuxième et troisième phases puissent atteindre 100 MW à 150 MW
installés par année, la capacité totale d’un parc éolien en Gaspésie
pourrait atteindre éventuellement près de 900 MW et serait près de la
demande de pointe annuelle locale, soit environ 1 000 MW et risque
souvent d’excéder la demande de la région à d’autres moments.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can imagine easily 1000 of those in the Northern unused tundra. I
mean if only investment is the problem. If they see it that way, this 1
gigawatt of production a day takes a decade to build but then produces
the installed energy equivalent of 15,157.895 bbl a day. 1000 of these
would give off eq. 15 millions barrels a day. The fact is that it can be
sent directly in power lines and stored as hydrogen in specially
designed plants to be used at peek hours.
Even when there will be a switch to hydrogen it will not need to be sent
in pipelines as hydrogen is easy to generate and can always be produced
elsewhere. The local hydrogen plants would be for storage capacity.
Anyway, it is not for nothing that Greenpeace says that we can suffice
the planet in energy with wind power in their recent ad.
along with Armory Lovins improvement on efficiency, wind power can be
quite an asset to counter greenhouse gases catastrophic effects and
middle east shortages, which makes China vote against action in Sudan
for instance. Petroleum wouldn't sway the West, but it does make the
main weasels of the permanent SC (safe Russia) jump in loop for Muslim
ideology.
J.
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a
grain
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That
is
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
very
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when
we
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
want
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even
if
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
it
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not
just
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters
in
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is
a
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After
all,
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the
planet.
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Those dissenters are usually found as "scientists" working for the
industrials
who don't want them to produce frightning news. And the number of
dissidents is slowly decreasing.
The Earth has had its fluctuations in general temperature, but there
has
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
always been a correlation to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and
the average temperature. What scientist do agree upon in a large
majority
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
is that the amount of CO2 in our atmosphere has indeed increased the
last century caused by environmental pollution by the industry, the
usuage of cars and the heating of our homes. The overinfluencing is
indeed
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
taking place. Only "scientists" with debatable jobs in the industry
claim
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
otherwise. Highly recommended scientist such as Stephen Hawking are
certainly not on your side of the political agenda.
I was playing "Devil's Advocate", truth be told. My main point is
that
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Kyoto targets only industrialized countries, while those with emerging
economies may emit at will.
I think it will be a moot point, anyway, as the end of the age of
cheap
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
oil
Post by Jane
is nigh. The peak oil theory is one I give credence to, as it is
advocated
Post by Jane
not by the usual band of freaks left over from the 60s but by
geologists
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
in
Post by Jane
the field. I'm sure we're in for a rocky road adjusting.
Jane
LOL ... what would be the diff between the '60's freaks and the
geologists
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
if they both reached the same conclucions?
I don't think you need a degree or to be a rocket scientist to realize
that
Post by Barbarossa
the Earth is finite and everything on it or in it is limited. I think
the
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
'60's freaks were the ones telling people to change the way they lived
so
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
as
Post by Barbarossa
to do as little harm as possible to the enviroment. Are you going to
wait
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Post by Barbarossa
for the eggheads to come along and tell you this before you start to
believe
Post by Barbarossa
it?
Regarding this issue it would have been a lot better if the world has
listened
to those hippies from the 60s. Our energyproviders would have been solar-
wind- and waterenergy already with cars using H2. We listened too much
to scientists who were connected with the industry and to politicians who
are just in power to suit the militairy industrial complex.
You should read the peak oil bible, "The Party's Over", by Richard Heinberg.
In it, he looks at alternative fuels and explains why they will never work
on a large scale (the one that stuck in my mind was ethanol...we would need
every field we now grow corn on...leaving none for human/ animal
consumption...and we still couldn't power a fraction of our cars). He
explains why hydrogen, wind and solar power also will not work. It's an
interesting read.
Jane
Post by Marvin The Paranoid Android
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Jane
2004-09-29 12:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a
grain
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is
very
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we
want
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if
it
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not just
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters in
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Those dissenters are usually found as "scientists" working for the
industrials
who don't want them to produce frightning news. And the number of
dissidents is slowly decreasing.
The Earth has had its fluctuations in general temperature, but there has
always been a correlation to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and
the average temperature. What scientist do agree upon in a large
majority
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
is that the amount of CO2 in our atmosphere has indeed increased the
last century caused by environmental pollution by the industry, the
usuage of cars and the heating of our homes. The overinfluencing is
indeed
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
taking place. Only "scientists" with debatable jobs in the industry
claim
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
otherwise. Highly recommended scientist such as Stephen Hawking are
certainly not on your side of the political agenda.
I was playing "Devil's Advocate", truth be told. My main point is that
Kyoto targets only industrialized countries, while those with emerging
economies may emit at will.
I think it will be a moot point, anyway, as the end of the age of cheap
oil
Post by Jane
is nigh. The peak oil theory is one I give credence to, as it is
advocated
Post by Jane
not by the usual band of freaks left over from the 60s but by geologists
in
Post by Jane
the field. I'm sure we're in for a rocky road adjusting.
Jane
LOL ... what would be the diff between the '60's freaks and the geologists
if they both reached the same conclucions?
I don't think you need a degree or to be a rocket scientist to realize
that
Post by Barbarossa
the Earth is finite and everything on it or in it is limited. I think the
'60's freaks were the ones telling people to change the way they lived so as
to do as little harm as possible to the enviroment. Are you going to wait
for the eggheads to come along and tell you this before you start to believe
it?
:-)
But the majority of 60s hippies (freaks was a poor choice of words) are now
driving SUVs and living in 4000 square foot homes! Guess they forgot their
own message!

Jane
Post by Barbarossa
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.767 / Virus Database: 514 - Release Date: 9/21/04
Jean Guernon
2004-09-29 23:46:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a grain
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is very
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we want
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if it
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not just
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters in
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Those dissenters are usually found as "scientists" working for the
industrials
who don't want them to produce frightning news. And the number of
dissidents is slowly decreasing.
The Earth has had its fluctuations in general temperature, but there has
always been a correlation to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and
the average temperature. What scientist do agree upon in a large majority
is that the amount of CO2 in our atmosphere has indeed increased the
last century caused by environmental pollution by the industry, the
usuage of cars and the heating of our homes. The overinfluencing is indeed
taking place. Only "scientists" with debatable jobs in the industry claim
otherwise. Highly recommended scientist such as Stephen Hawking are
certainly not on your side of the political agenda.
I was playing "Devil's Advocate", truth be told. My main point is that
Kyoto targets only industrialized countries, while those with emerging
economies may emit at will.
I think it will be a moot point, anyway, as the end of the age of cheap oil
is nigh. The peak oil theory is one I give credence to, as it is advocated
not by the usual band of freaks left over from the 60s but by geologists in
the field. I'm sure we're in for a rocky road adjusting.
Jane
Exactly. China is choking under its pollution emissions which also
affects the rest of the world, just so they can grab part of the world
economy, and Kyoto doesn't address this at all.

J.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Jane
2004-09-30 03:40:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a grain
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is very
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we want
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if it
were
Post by Jane
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not just
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters in
the
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a
natural
Post by Jane
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all,
earth's
Post by Jane
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Those dissenters are usually found as "scientists" working for the
industrials
who don't want them to produce frightning news. And the number of
dissidents is slowly decreasing.
The Earth has had its fluctuations in general temperature, but there has
always been a correlation to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and
the average temperature. What scientist do agree upon in a large majority
is that the amount of CO2 in our atmosphere has indeed increased the
last century caused by environmental pollution by the industry, the
usuage of cars and the heating of our homes. The overinfluencing is indeed
taking place. Only "scientists" with debatable jobs in the industry claim
otherwise. Highly recommended scientist such as Stephen Hawking are
certainly not on your side of the political agenda.
I was playing "Devil's Advocate", truth be told. My main point is that
Kyoto targets only industrialized countries, while those with emerging
economies may emit at will.
I think it will be a moot point, anyway, as the end of the age of cheap oil
is nigh. The peak oil theory is one I give credence to, as it is advocated
not by the usual band of freaks left over from the 60s but by geologists in
the field. I'm sure we're in for a rocky road adjusting.
Jane
Exactly. China is choking under its pollution emissions which also
affects the rest of the world, just so they can grab part of the world
economy, and Kyoto doesn't address this at all.
J.
Yes, I was thinking of China and India when I posted!

Jane
Post by Jean Guernon
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Barbarossa
2004-09-29 23:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a grain of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of Washington.
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is very bad
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we want to
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the Republicans
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either. Even if it were
improved so that ALL countries had limits on their emissions, not just
western countries, it is too late, IMO. There are also dissenters in the
scientific community who are of the opinion that climate change is a natural
phenomenon and not over influenced by man's activities. After all, earth's
climate has changed many, many times over the history of the planet.
Just fresh from the press. I just read on Belgian videotext that Russia is
about to ratify the Kyoto agreement.

Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
tw
2004-09-30 12:43:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a grain of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of Washington.
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is very bad
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we want to
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the Republicans
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either.
They have now...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3702640.stm

Looks like Dubya is even further out on his limb than before.. what a shame
;-)
Jane
2004-10-01 03:45:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
I like reading any new medical information, but take it with a grain
of
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
Post by Jane
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1096150207840
<snipped for convienience; link is above>
Then the Americans better vote Bush and his oil-clique out of
Washington.
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
He refuses to sign the Kyoto agreement and live up to it. That is very
bad
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
news considering the plausibility of your post right? So, when we want
to
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
prevent such epidemic disasters from happening it's better the
Republicans
Post by Jane
Post by Barbarossa
are not running America.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Kyoto has major flaws and Russia has not signed it, either.
They have now...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3702640.stm
Looks like Dubya is even further out on his limb than before.. what a shame
;-)
Yes, I saw the reports. Doesn't change the fact that it is a flawed
agreement. Oh, well, if people think it will be the panacea, who am I to
disillusion them?

Jane
Synyc
2004-10-04 02:21:17 UTC
Permalink
I read a book named Full Circle that was based on a similar premise.
In that book, a frozen fossil is recovered from deep in the Greenland
icepack, and it contains an ancient virus. Not hard science, I guess,
but it was a really good book.

Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...